BTU #333 - Jocko Willink and Leif Babin

“Anything worth doing in life, if you can do it yourself, it’s probably not that big of a deal.”

— Jocko Willink

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Why Listen:
In 3 years and 333 episodes, today’s conversation is the highlight of my time with Beyond the Uniform. More than anyone else I have witnessed, Jocko Willink and Leif Babin are doing the most to elevate the civilian world’s understanding of military Veterans and what they bring to the table. In this conversation we talk about what it is like for Jocko and Leif to work together now, out of uniform. We also talk about what it was like starting their company, Echelon Front… and it’s not as easy as I had thought it would be. We talk about their newest initiatives - EF Overwatch and EF Legion, incredible recruiting resources for the military community. We talk about career transition advice and mindsets to keep and tweak and more.

About Jocko:
Jocko Willink is a retired U.S. Navy SEAL officer, co-author of the #1 New York Times bestseller Extreme Ownership: How U.S. Navy SEALs Lead and Win, Dichotomy of Leadership, host of the top-rated Jocko Podcast, and co-founder of Echelon Front, where he serves as Chief Executive Officer, leadership instructor, speaker and strategic advisor. Jocko spent 20 years in the SEAL Teams, starting as an enlisted SEAL and rising through the ranks to become a SEAL officer. As commander of SEAL Team Three’s Task Unit Bruiser during the battle of Ramadi, he orchestrated SEAL operations that helped the “Ready First” Brigade of the U.S. Army’s First Armored Division bring stability to the violent, war-torn city. Task Unit Bruiser became the most highly decorated Special Operations Unit of the Iraq War. Jocko returned from Iraq to serve as Officer-in-Charge of training for all West Coast SEAL Teams. There, he spearheaded the development of leadership training and personally instructed and mentored the next generation of SEAL leaders who have continued to perform with great success on the battlefield. Jocko is the recipient of the Silver Star, the Bronze Star, and numerous other personal and unit awards.

Upon retiring from the Navy, Jocko co-founded Echelon Front, a premier leadership consulting company, where he teaches the leadership principles he learned on the battlefield to help others lead and win. Jocko also authored the Discipline Equals Freedom Field Manual, a New York Times Bestseller, and the best selling Way of the Warrior Kid children’s book series.

About Leif:
Leif Babin is a former U.S. Navy SEAL officer, co-author of #1 New York Times bestseller Extreme Ownership: How U.S. Navy SEALs Lead and Win, and co-founder of Echelon Front, where he serves as President/Chief Operating Officer, leadership instructor, speaker, and strategic advisor. A graduate of the U.S. Naval Academy, Leif served thirteen years in the Navy, including nine in the SEAL Teams. As a SEAL platoon commander in SEAL Team Three’s Task Unit Bruiser, he planned and led major combat operations in the Battle of Ramadi that helped the “Ready First” Brigade of the US Army’s 1st Armored Division achieve victory. Task Unit Bruiser became the most highly decorated special operations unit of the Iraq War.
Leif returned from combat and became the primary leadership instructor for all officers graduating from the SEAL training pipeline. There, he reshaped SEAL leadership training to better prepare the next generation of SEAL officers for the immense challenges of combat. During his last tour, Leif served as Operations Officer and Executive Officer at a SEAL Team where he again deployed to Iraq with a Special Operations Task Force. He is the recipient of the Silver Star, two Bronze Stars, and a Purple Heart. Upon his departure from active duty, Leif co-founded Echelon Front, a premier leadership consulting company that helps others build their own high-performance winning teams.

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Partners:

Have you ever wondered how you could become a more effective and balanced leader? Or how to find a team with a high degree of trust that performs at a level you’re accustomed to? Check out The Leadership Podcast where they study what makes the best leaders tick - including many who have moved "beyond the uniform" to reach new levels of success and fulfillment.

Selected Resources:

Jocko:

Leif:

Leif LinkedIn | Twitter | Facebook | Instagram

Echelon Front:

Extreme Ownership
Dichotomy of Leadership

Transcript & Time Stamps:

5:50

Joining me today from Austin, TX and San Diego, CA, my guests are Leif Babin and Jocko Willink.

Leif - you left the military after 13 years of service. How did you approach that decision.

Leif: All I wanted to do in my life was be a combat leader which I got to do with the SEALs. But as I moved up in the ranks, I was getting further and further away from the operations on the ground which was what I loved. After 13 years in the military, I was ready to get out and attack something else.

There were also some personal factors as well. My wife was working in New York City at the time and if I stayed in, the closest I would get to New York would be Washington, DC. We had lived apart from each other for a long time and were ready to live in the same spot for once.

When I got out I was making less than half of what I did as a Navy SEAL. So I think you need to factor that in as well. In your first job after leaving the military, you’ll likely be making less than you did when you were in the military.

12:40

Has the relationship between the two of you changed since you’ve been out of the military?

Jocko: I don’t think there’s been any change. Even when we were in, we were very collaborative. So when we decided to start a company together, it really was not different.

Leif: Jocko was my boss in Task Unit Bruiser. I was the senior platoon commander. We built a strong friendship during that time. When we started Echelon Front, it was just he and I. But as we grew, we realized that we had to put some sort of an organizational structure in place. We worked together to put that in place, that process was completely collaborative. We almost never disagree.

Jocko is a fantastic leader as the CEO of Echelon Front. He has a vision but he’s always willing to listen to other people if they have an idea about something we can do differently or better.

Jocko: It’s not just Leif and I at the company anymore. We have a whole crew of people doing this with us now. And that’s all based on the relationships we’ve built during our time with the SEALs.

18:40

How would you describe what Echelon Front does?

Jocko: It’s a leadership consulting company. We teach people to lead.

19:15

How did the company come to be?

Leif: Jocko retired in 2010 and was working in the mortgage business. He realized that the leadership principles we learned in the military could be applied to the civilian sector as well. When I left the military in 2011, I was thinking about going to law school but realized I didn’t really want to be a lawyer.

In August 2011, we had friends die in a helicopter accident in Afghanistan. That was a reminder that life is short so you should do what you love to do. I loved to lead SEALs but I had already done that. The other thing that I loved to do was teach leadership which I had done a lot of in the military. So I called Jocko and told him that we needed to start a leadership company.

We started Echelon Front in the fall of 2011. We became an official LLC in February 2012. What I had completely forgotten during this time was that a year and a half prior to all of this, Jocko had told me that he thought we should start a leadership company some day. So the original idea was all his. But we’re successful at Echelon Front because we really don’t care who gets credit for what. We just care about succeeding.

Jocko: About six months prior to retiring from the Navy, a CEO friend I knew asked me to come talk to his company. It went extremely well and soon after, other executives were asking me to do the same thing at their companies. So I knew there was a need for something like that. But I knew I wasn’t going to be able to put together a leadership company alone so it worked out that Leif happened to be getting out at that time and also had a desire to start a leadership company.

26:00

I really appreciate that you’re able to make these lessons valuable for people from all different backgrounds.

Jocko: You have to communicate with people in a way that they’ll understand. We try to keep the lessons as simple as possible so they really resonate with people.

Leif: I just want to recognize the role our spouses have played in our success as well. My wife has been incredibly supportive during this journey and Jocko’s wife is one of the best people you could ever meet. I really appreciate military spouses.

When my wife recognized that teaching leadership was something that would really inspire me, that was an important moment. We try to give people those same tools to recognize in themselves what will motivate them. When you’re getting out of the military, you need to really think about what you want your new mission to be.

29:50

Do either of you have any advice for people that want to start their own company?

Jocko: Start small and really pay attention to what the demands of the market are. We didn’t have an office of any kind in the beginning. Last year we finally went out and rented an office in Austin, TX. So we started very lean and only grew when we knew that there would be demand. To me, this was a good way to mitigate risk along the way.

You’re not always right. You may think you have a great product but you could be wrong. If you attack your idea from a conservative stance, you can do small tests with the product along the way and understand more about what the market actually wants. That way you can tweak your product into something people will actually want to buy.

Leif: You also have to think long-term. People think that if they get on a television program to promote their product, suddenly their product will blow up. You might see a short spike in sales, but you really need a longer term vision about how to build sales.

You need to be honest about what people want. But you also need to understand that experts might not always be right. A lot of experts told us that we needed to work with companies that were in the middle of a crisis. But that has turned out to be a very small portion of our business. We work mostly with companies that are doing well and looking for ways to do even better.

When we decided to write a book we didn’t want to use a ghostwriter. People told us it was crazy that we wanted to do it ourselves. The first five publishing houses that we approached turned us down. But fast forward to today when the book is one of the bestselling business books in recent years.

37:35

You recently developed a new branch of your company - Echelon Front Legion. What is that?

Jocko: Mike Sarraile was an Assistant Platoon Commander in Task Unit Bruiser. He ended up doing 10 combat deployments to the Middle East. When he got out of the military, he worked for Vetted, a non-profit company that helps match military veterans to civilian jobs. He liked it but he thought he could do it more effectively.

So he joined us to start Echelon Front Overwatch which focuses on placing military leaders in civilian positions where they will thrive. Echelon Front Legion was started with a specific focus on placing more junior members in civilian positions.

Leif:

EF Overwatch is not just a placement company. The program actively works with the veteran throughout the program to help them develop themselves and connect with companies. The program is mutually beneficial because so many companies are starved for humble, effective leadership. Veterans have that but they sometimes have trouble expressing that to civilian hiring managers. So we work to bridge that divide.

Jocko: Not only does the military veteran learn about how to translate their experience to civilian hiring managers but those managers are also familiar with the principles of Extreme Ownership so they already have an idea about what veterans can bring to their organization.

45:35

What kind of mindset changes need to occur for veterans transitioning to civilian life?

Jocko: The most important quality for a leader to have is humility. Sometimes veterans can struggle with this. They were very good at their job inside the military and were accustomed to other people taking orders from them. When they get out, they get to work in a new industry. If they’re not able to approach that with a humble mind, that can be a problem.

Leif was highly decorated when he left the military but he went to companies and offered his leadership experience for free. Then over time, we were able to start charging companies for that leadership knowledge.

Leif: You have to have the discipline to make it work. Some veterans feel that they just want to coast when they get out of the military. But that’s not going to work if you want to succeed in the civilian sector.

50:40

Is there anything else you’d like to share with listeners?

Jocko: What we do at Echelon Front is to take the lessons we learned on the battlefield and bring those to as many people as possible. We see incredible growth and improvement in the operations of companies we’ve worked with. Then when we’re able to take that one step further and place veterans inside those organizations, it’s a win for everyone.

Leif: Whether you’re on active duty and thinking about transitioning or you’ve already transitioned, think strategically about your career moving forward. Don’t just jump on the first job opportunity. Be humble and think about what motivates and drives you. If you stay focused and work hard, that will lead you to success.