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Why Listen:

Joe’s story is a great example of a military Veteran who makes a BIG career change after the military. He majored in Computer Science at West Point, but never had any intention of going into Software Engineering. However, he loved to program and so he kept doing it on the side while in the military. That hobby landed him a job at Google and a completely different life and career path. In this interview we talk about Software Engineering - what it’s like, how to succeed in this role, what career progression looks like, and the difference between a large company like Google and a small startup like his current employer, Heap. Regardless of whether or not you’re interested in Software Engineering, Joe’s story shares great advice on how to make a transition to a wildly different career path than the military.

About Joe:

Joe Schafer is a Software Engineer at Heap, a technology that allows organizations of all sizes can remove technical bottlenecks and gain a single comprehensive view of their customers. He started out at West Point, where he studied Computer Science, after which he served in the Army for five years. After his military service, he worked at Google as a Software Engineer for nearly three years.

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Partners:

• Have you ever wondered how you could become a more effective and balanced leader? Or how to find a team with a high degree of trust that performs at a level you’re accustomed to? Check out The Leadership Podcast where they study what makes the best leaders tick - including many who have moved "beyond the uniform" to reach new levels of success and fulfillment.

Selected Resources: 

• Websites

  • Leet Code - sells interview questions for big tech companies

  • Reddit/r/programming - declined in quality in the last 10 years but still a valuable resource

  • HackerNews - good way to gauge what the Silicon Valley bubble is feeling

  • MeetUp.com - can be helpful to meet people interested in programming

• Books

  • Cracking the Coding interview - gives exhaustive process on how Google interviews

Transcript & Time Stamps:

3:00

Joining me today from San Francisco is Joe Schafer. What was your transition out of the Army like?

My undergraduate degree was in Computer Science but then when I was in the Army, I was in the Infantry so I really didn’t use my computer skills at all in that job. But on the side, I would follow news in different programming languages and computer coding techniques. A few years in, I was contacted by two recruiters - one from Google and another from High Frequency Trading. They had found my Github profile. I studied up and ended up going to four different interviews. I got an offer from one of the companies and that pushed me to leave the Army and pursue software engineering full-time. I ultimately got an offer from Google right as I was getting out.

5:50 

With a degree in Computer Science, did you know that you ultimately wanted to go into that?

Not really. I liked being in the Army and I was planning on transferring to the cyber security branch. It was when the recruiters reached out to me that I started to think about a different path. 

6:20

When did you become interested in computer science?

I first got into it in high school. I read a book called The Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs. I found that I enjoyed spending hours working through the problems in that book. 

7:40

Programming seems to invoke a state of flow in you. Is that true?

Yes I think that’s right. On Monday, I was working on building a new website and I was up until 2 working on that. 

8:15

What is the tech application process like?

Cracking the Coding Interview is a good place to start. At Google, the first step will be a phone call with a recruiter. Then you’ll do a phone screening with an engineer.  If you pass that, Google will fly you to Mountain View, CA to do an on-site interview. Throughout the interview process, I was asked all technical questions. That’s pretty standard for a tech interview. 

10:40

What else helped you get ready for the application process?

I tried out all different kinds of programming languages. It was also necessary for me to have a Computer Science degree. 

For actual interview prep, there’s a site called LeetCode that I recommend. 

12:00

What did your day-to-day look like at Google?

I usually arrived at work around 10:30. I spent an hour just working on various tasks. Then around 11:30, my team will get together and figure out where everyone was at. After that I went to lunch. In the afternoon, there were usually a couple meetings. The rest of the time was spent coding. I would usually leave the office around 6. Occasionally, I would work a bit during the weekend. 

13:45

What is your day-to-day like now at Heap?

It’s very similar to Google. 

14:15

What is Heap like as a company?

It’s a data analytics company. They have a technology called retro-active analytics. Heap captures all your events from the beginning and allows you to query any aspect of those events. 

15:15

How did you transition from Google to Heap?

I was at Google for about three years and had a great time there. But I was itching to do something different. I wanted to be closer to the business side of the house. At Google, I felt very insulated from any of those business aspects. 

Someone from Heap messaged me on LinkedIn about a year ago and the position they were looking to fill really interested me. So ultimately, I decided to make the switch.

Heap is also located in San Francisco whereas Google is in Mountain View. I’m really enjoying being in a more city environment. Heap is a startup and with startups, there’s always fires to put out. I like that because you’re learning and growth is really accelerated. 

18:30

For someone that wants to go into a career in software engineering, would you advise them to start at a bigger company like you did? 

I think it’s most important that you just get a foothold somewhere. Your military background often won’t be exactly what companies are looking for. So make sure you’re doing targeted interview preparation for a couple big companies but apply to others as well. Once you get that first position, it will help make you more attractive to other companies. 

20:40

What advice do you have for someone that is interested in this career path?

If you’re going into college, I really recommend getting a Computer Science degree. If you’re further along in your career, a coding bootcamp can be a good option for you. For interview prep, make sure you are doing very specific and targeted preparation. 

23:30

Are there any traits that you’ve brought with you from the military into this career?

I think being gritty and determined has really helped me. I find that I’m able to grind through unpleasant things in a way that my non-veteran colleagues cannot.

24:50

What are some of the perks that are often found at tech companies?

Google’s perks were amazing. Their buildings and vendors were top quality. There’s great light everywhere and of course free food. There were also gyms on campus. Their 401(k) match was incredible. There’s free education. Just tons of perks. 

26:40

Was there anything difficult about transitioning from the military into this career path?

The biggest one for me was getting used to the fact that your manager isn’t this authoritarian figure. That took me about a year to figure out. Communication style can also be very different. The role was a bit different as well. In the Army, I was a manager whereas at Google, I was more of an individual contributor.

28:20

Would you ever like to go back to managing people?

Yes eventually I would like to switch over to the engineering management track. 

29:00

What does that ultimate career track look like?

Generally there are two progressions as a software engineer. One is a path in which you remain an individual contributor. The other path is one in which you eventually switch to a management track. On that track, you would have lower level software engineers reporting to you. 

30:35

Do you have any resources you would recommend?

Cracking the Code Interview and LeetCode are both good resources. There is also a coding subReddit. I spend a lot of time on Hacker News. I also recommend MeetUps as a way to meet other people interested in programming. 

32:40

Is there anything else you’d like to add?

I found that I’ve consistently underplayed the value of relationships. However, it’s become clear to me how important building a network can be throughout your career.