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Why Listen:
I was riding a high after my conversation with Jeff for days - I appreciate his strength, vulnerability, and authenticity in this conversation. You can view this interview in two parts - the first part we discuss his transition from the Marine Corps into law enforcement, including work in prisons, on patrol, and with the SWAT teams. In the second half, we both talk about our experience with therapy and mental health. Jeff talks candidly about PTSD and depression, and we both open up about the positive impact therapy has had on our lives.

If this latter topic resonates with you, there are so many great resources out there to support you. The one that comes immediately to mind I learned about in episode #368 with Joe Quinn, where he talked about Headstrong - at GetHeadStrong.org - you take a 60 second survey and as a Veteran get paired with a best-in-class clinician for unlimited therapy.

But - as we talk about in this interview - I don't want to spin this as a - if you're contemplating suicide, get help. I'm a big believer that therapy is a preventative maintenance - that it is similar to Olympic athletes working with an elite coach - it's a great way to deepen as a human being, understand yourself more, and ensure you're operating at your peak capacity.

About Jeff:
Jeff McDonald is a Safe School Specialist at the University of Montana. His Career started in the Marine Corps, where he served for four years with two combat deployments and has included work in Law Enforcement and as a SWAT officer.

Our Sponsor:
This episode is brought to you by Pass Life. Serving in the military is inherently dangerous - are your affairs in order? The grief a service member's family feels upon learning of their passing is difficult enough, but the days, weeks, and months that follow are filled with stressful decisions. Pass Life is a single solution, secure cloud-based platform where Funeral Preparations, Last Wishes, Will Information, Financial Assets, Business Continuation Information, Social Media Account info, etc., can be uploaded to recipients of the user's choosing. Pass Life allows you to alleviate the stress and lift the fog for your loved ones, preeminently, by giving them a vital trove of information in multiple areas. 

Listeners can save 10% by using the code "BTU” at checkout.

Learn more at Pass-Life.com.

Selected Resources: 

• Jeff has made himself available in case you would like to connect. You can reach him at jmcdonald4114 @ yahoo.com

• GetHeadstrong.org - 60 sec survey to get paired with a MD psych evaluation and best-in-class clinician for unlimited therapy. Aimed at Post-9/11 veteran of any status (active duty, veteran, military spouses, etc.)

Transcript & Time Stamps:

05:05

What was your transition like? And what was that first job search like?

The transition was a lot harder than I thought it would be. Growing up, being a Cop as a dream of mine, and being a SWAT Cop specifically. However, high school kind of changed that idea for me. I was kind of a knucklehead in high school, and I didn’t love the cops as much at that point, and they didn’t love me. But then I served in the Marines, and when I got out I went and did an MPAT (Montana Physical Abilities Test) to become a Fireman. And I walked in, and I did really well on the MPAT. And they asked me if I wanted to do an interview with the Fire Captain. And here I am in, you know, PT clothes, sweat pouring off my body. And I walk into this interview, and the Fire Captain asked me to tell him about myself. So I explain, you know, that I was just discharged from the Marine Corps honorably as a Sergeant, two combat tours, one to Afghanistan in 2005, one in 2006 as an Infantry Marine, and he says, Okay, are you a paramedic or EMT? No, sir. I literally just discharged last month. Okay. All right. Do you have a fire science background? And or Have you completed a Fire Academy? Respectfully, sir, no, I did not. I literally just discharged from Hawaii last month. And he looked at me stone cold in my face and said, brother, you're a dime a dozen. And I humbly said this interview is over, sir. And I walked out. And lo and behold, my next door neighbor, she was a Commander with the Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department. And I vented to her like, I can't believe this guy! Who does he think he is? I'm not a dime a dozen. I know what I am. And I know who I am. And I know what I've done. Nothing special, but I'm not a dime a dozen. And she said, well, firemen suck - come be a cop, lol. You know, she's a 30-year Deputy Sheriff for LA County, and she says, I will help you along this process, I will get you hired as a deputy. And that's how my transition went. And I didn't realize it's all about who you know sometimes, not what you know. And she was somebody to know, because I was very lucky to get hired when I did.

07:40

I love that you had the conviction just to leave, leave that conversation, which feels like the appropriate response.

Oh, I had some very colorful words for him. I just bit my tongue because I still have some bearing from the Marine Corps. And I wanted to let him know where I stood, but be respectful at the same time. And it's been a true blessing, you know. God opens certain doors for you and closes others. So I believe that, you know, God wanted me to be a cop for a little bit.

08:14

And I also like what you said, which is there is this serendipity component, where having that conversation with this lady led to you even realizing that law enforcement was a route for you to go at that time. But also, I'm imagining, you know, opening the door for you to at least start the applicationwhich might not have happened otherwise. I think it's a good reminder, for listeners that like that, that's why it's good to talk to a lot of people you never know where that will lead.

100%. I'm a firm believer in communicating and, and you know, if I was a jerk to her, or if I was like, not a nice neighbor to her, and we live next to each other for at least 10 or 15 years. So if I wasn't like a neighborly person, she would have never extended that offer to me. Or if she didn't believe that I was a decent human being she would have never extended that offer. So I am a firm believer in it is who you know, sometimes, but it's also the relationships that you build. And, hypothetically, if we knew each other, and then you knew somebody that needed somebody, or was looking to hire somebody, if I'm not a good friend, not a good person, you're not going to recommend me to that person. So, you know, don't sell yourself short, but don't burn any bridges either. That's why I chose not to say some colorful words to that fire captain.

09:34

I'm curious what the process was like so you know, from there, what did it look like? But I'm also curious, you know, having everyone listening having some common background in the military, like kind of how it related to the the boot camp experience from the military.

Yeah, law enforcement specifically is a paramilitary organization. Similar ranks structures, things like that. The (police) academy, they try and make it like a boot camp or you know, basic training. But I think, for me, it was kind of like, oh man, I've heard that one before. Oh, this is never going to end. I guarantee you in like 15 minutes its going to end, you know that you remind yourself like remember that in boot camp or, you know, when they said this is blah, blah, blah, it all does kind of relate and it's a little easier. Versus like civilians that go straight into the (police) academy. I saw some of my buddies, they struggled a little bit as far as someone yelling in their face, or holding a push up position, learning how to march, those basics that we take for granted as veterans, you know, we pick up really fast and and we stand out a little bit more than a civilian that's kind of thrust into the situation.

10:50

How long was it? And what was it like? And I wonder at what point did you veer off into SWAT specifically?

So, the application process takes a long time. I do appreciate that because they're trying to vet you as a human being. So they spoke to my neighbors, they spoke to friends, you know, people that you recommend in an application. The application process took approximately, I want to say eight months from the time I submitted my papers, to the time I got a phone call saying we would like you to attend our academy on this date. So, it did take some time. You have several interviews with current deputies and city police wherever you decide to go. And you also have like sight tests, written tests, and then you have to also do a physical agility test to make sure that you are at least qualified enough to go into the academy. So that process like I said, it was I think about eight months, and then the academy I attended was approximately five and a half months.

12:27

Just one random question - do they pay you at the academy? And I’m kind of curious like, for those eight months when you were applying, how did you make ends meet while you were going down this path?

So I was fortunate enough that I was smart and I had good leadership in the Marine Corps. And when I got back from a deployment, I didn't go out and buy the car and buy all the new clothes and whatever, you know, brand new computers and blah, blah, blah. I spoiled myself a little bit, but I was smart. And I had good parents that taught me how to budget and plan and save. So I actually discharged the Marine Corps with a little over 50 grand in my pocket, which isn't bad for an enlisted guy. I also lived a frugal life. I was stuck in the barracks and, you know, you buy pizza with a buddy of yours on the weekends and you eat at the chow hall and you save money that way. So, I kind of survived off my savings and I was very grateful that my parents let me come back and live with them so that I didn't have rent.

14:01

And so, at what point did you veer off to SWAT?

my first agency was with the Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department, and I was stuck in the jails. I was a jail deputy for a little over three years well and fortunate enough to work in the gang modules. So I got to work and learn about gang tattoos and gang lingo and who's who in the zoo and learning how to actually talk to hardened criminals I worked in LA and LA is known for their gangsters, bloods, Crips Hispanic gangs, Compton body with RSA etc. You learn about all these cliques and gangs and very, very fortunate. However, I didn't join law enforcement to be a babysitter and that is ultimately what a jail deputy is. It is Groundhog's Day, seven days a week, 365 days a year. And you know when Lenin is you know until call is my my The places I wanted to go and be a patrol deputy would have taken me eight to nine years to stay in jail to get out to those stations. And I didn't want to spend a third of my career in the jails. And I had some friends and my wife had some friends that worked for the city of Ontario, which is in Southern California, about an hour east of Los Angeles. And I threw an app in, and I didn't have to do, because I'm already a sworn officer for the state of California. I didn't have to jump through as many hoops. The background was just as long still had to do psych test still had to do interviews. I just didn't have to do like written tests and physical agility test, because I've already passed those those requirements. So Ontario, said yes. And I became an Ontario police officer, and then went straight to patrol.

 

Justin Nassiri  15:46

And and for the person when you're in the jail, were you always did you just always feel on guard like we were you always just tense? We know or what was that

 

16:02

first? Yes, because that's a whole new animal. And you're dealing, I remember, they threw me the keys. They said, Go do your checks, make sure no one's dead or beat up anybody inside those cells? And I'm like, who's coming with me then? And now you're going on your own boot?

 

16:15

Well,

 

16:16

you're, you know, it is very intimidating, because you're dealing with, again, with murderers, you know, people that carry guns and not in jails, obviously. But I mean, you're dealing with hardened hardened criminals and fighters, and you name it. So there is that intimidation factor. But those dudes are sharks, if they smell a little bit of blood, they're going to attack. So I kind of just put on my marine face, if you will, you know, no, you know, had bearing and walked in and just handled business like I normally would. It took some time to learn, and they knew they knew I was fresh, they could smell it. But they also knew that a little bit of confidence in me and I think that my military presence and the way I carry myself the way I dress the way my uniform was tight and crisp and still believe in those things. I think they understood. And then after a while you start learning how to talk to them and learning how to let certain things slide and, you know, you kind of gain their respect and they you know, it makes it a little easier.

 

Justin Nassiri  17:14

What was the How long were you on patrol then? And like what was that like?

 

17:18

patrols fun, but for being a patrolman is a great time because you can be as active as you want. Or you can just handle the calls that come to you on the radio or on the computer. So good cops are the ones that are turning over the rocks looking for the bad guys. They're the ones that are hitting the alleys, you know, going blacked out and driving through like the bad neighborhoods looking for the bad guys. You know, out being proactive, as we call it in law enforcement looking for crime as it's occurring, or before it occurs. Trying to find guys with guns, guys with dope. That's, that's what a good cop does. A lazy COP is a cop that they send him a call. He goes to handle that call and then you wait for another call. So I had a blast on patrol. patrols a lot of fun working nights was awesome. Before I had kids.

 

Justin Nassiri  18:11

And it was three years in the jail. How long? How long were you on patrol then?

 

18:14

So I did four years of patrol. I was very fortunate. When I got hired with the city of Ontario, I linked up with some former Marines that were all combat vets. And one of them my mentor, one of my mentors over at the city of Ontario, asked me what I wanted to do. And one of my lifelong goals as a young kid. And then once I got into law enforcement was to get on a SWAT team in Ontario has a good SWAT team. They're very reputable when they go to competitions, and they do a good job. And I was fortunate enough to try out right after I cleared probation. So anytime you're hired you You do have to serve a probationary period you're an at will employee for the first at least year. You can have your probation extended. So as soon as I cleared probation, there was SWAT tryouts and I was able to try out and go into an interview and was accepted on my first year first attempt.

 

Justin Nassiri  19:15

Wow, what was that? What was the? I don't want to call it an interview. But what was the process like to was like a week or how long was it? Oh, no,

 

19:23

it was just a you submit a letter of interest basically, or a memo, a memo to the captain. And I'm speaking specifically for my experience. Yeah, every every agency has their own own rules and ways of doing business. But for me, I submitted a letter of interest on a memo form, stating why I want to be on the SWAT team and why I think I'm qualified enough to be on the SWAT team. And then you get accepted based off of the city of Ontario you had to have at least three years of experience on as a police officer so they actually allowed my jail time experience because I was sworn to coincide with the one year that I had at the city of Ontario. So I was able to be accepted. And then we did a physical agility test, which was, you know, you end up running a mile and some change, and then do a bunch of push ups and sit ups and pull ups and, and then you go into a shooting course, to see how you handle weapons. And then and then an interview after that.

 

Justin Nassiri  20:26

Okay, how long what was the SWAT experience like, and how long was that?

 

20:31

I was on the SWAT team for about six years, wow, four, I moved up here. swats a lot of fun. I was, I was told early by the same mentor that helped me get onto the SWAT team was don't just be a SWAT guy be a guy that they need on every call? Well, so find the jobs that are going to put you in the in the in the action and do those jobs. So I followed his his lead, he was a breacher. And after I, you know, cut my teeth as a as just a regular operator, meaning like, learning all the all the intricacies of a SWAT team, because there's a lot of jobs in there, not just drop in flashbangs and make an entry. You have to be proficient in a lot of things. And they're not going to let you do certain jobs if you're not qualified. So I became decent at a entry specialist and or a perimeter guy. And I'll be the first to tell you the perimeter is one of the worst places to be on a SWAT call out. It is boring. So I followed my mentors lead and became a breacher. And then got to some really fun things. And if you're a breacher, you're not on the perimeter because you have to breach a front door or back door or something like that, or a window or a sliding glass door. So you get to be in the action.

 

Justin Nassiri  21:53

Did it feel like being back in the Marines parts of it.

 

21:57

I'm definitely not as dynamic in the Marine Corps. We're very dynamic. And we're methodical when we search, but we don't have a lot of the rules that that law enforcement has. So there's a lot of Hurry up and get to the scene and get kitted up and get in the Bearcats and park up front and wait. So it is similar to the Marine Corps Hurry up and wait. But sometimes our wait periods are like eight hours, well sitting out on a, it could be a hot night or a cold night or a hot morning, whatever. And you're in full gear, and you're waiting and waiting and waiting. So a lot of negotiations, a lot of you know, we have to wait on search warrants from detectives and make sure we have a good crime, there's a lot of behind the scenes stuff that the movies don't show because that would be a terrible movie of bunch of cops waiting to gain entry. And they're just sitting out there. You know, just waiting, smoking, smoking and joking. That was that would be the major difference. The tactics are relatively the same, because tactics really haven't evolved that much. In my opinion. We've gotten a lot safer and a lot smarter. As the years have progressed, especially within combat, and we've, you know, lessons learned. However, there's a law, a lot of wait period, a lot of downtime.

 

Justin Nassiri  23:14

How did you I'm kind of making a guess here, but I just think of like the three years in in the jail, and you know, almost a decade on patrol and with SWAT, I'm guessing you're in all of those, you're interacting with a very troubled part of society. And I imagine there is in a sane amount of stress just around physical safety and like there's there It feels like there's a lot of tolls in this line of work. I'm just kind of curious what that was like for you and how you stayed afloat amidst all of that stress and dealing with with some really, like you said, hardened criminals.

 

23:59

Yeah, and it's, I'll be I'll be very blunt, it wasn't the hardened criminals that that messed with me that that part of the job I was I was in one officer involved shooting in my time as a police officer shot out a few times throughout my career. Um,

 

24:16

but

 

24:18

it wasn't the hardened criminals are being shot at or anything like that, that messed with me it was that seeing dead children or seeing the effects of physical abuse or mental abuse, like seeing children, you know, and I call them children because they're young, but seeing children, you know, 12 years and under 14 years and under taking their own lives and because of mental physical and verbal abuse from family, you know, cyberbullying, you name it, and that's what hurts me the most because I had like I said, I'm a father. I have three small children. My oldest is eight, my youngest is four. So seeing that type of that's what messed with me the most You know, I can remember several times, texting my wife on the middle in the middle of the night, Please kiss kiss my kids one more time for me tell him Daddy loves them, not because I was scared of what I was about to encounter but more, because I just saw something that was really traumatic. And that that took its toll on me.

 

Justin Nassiri  25:20

Is that what what caused you? So after, after the six years in Swat, where did you go next? And how did that kind of change though

 

25:26

I stayed on the SWAT team. And then I was accepted on to our department, our department was a there was 10 of us that were able to be cross sworn as US Marshals and join a fugitive Task Force team. So I was able to basically stay on the SWAT team and then do this really cool job of chasing down fugitives for the city of Ontario. And then for the for the state of California on the Pacific Southwest side. So really awesome job, phenomenal undercover work, surveillance, a lot of surveillance, but we're also very proactive and looking for these bad. I mean, the worst of the worst. murderers attempt murder guys, gangsters, like very violent criminals. That's what we are tasked with doing is finding those guys. So I did that for years. On top of the SWOT side of things, and then my four years was up, because there's usually a cap on certain certain jobs within smaller agencies. And my time was up, and my wife and I had always talked about moving to Montana. And since my time was up on that really awesome job. You know, my kids were still very young, we decided to take this leap of faith and move to Montana.

 

Justin Nassiri  26:39

That's a pretty big move both geographically and did you know what you were gonna do when you moved? Or did you look for a job once you moved? or How did that go?

 

26:46

I started looking into law enforcement. And my wife ran across a picture on one of the agencies up here, I was a hand drawn sketch of a of a police officer and his canine and it said to, to this officers name, and thank you for years of service, and I looked at the name and I looked at the picture. And I'm like, No way I know that guy. I served in the Marine Corps with that guy. Now I haven't talked to him and 10 plus years, I didn't have this number in my phone. And I scrambled called contacted some buddies, and I called him and I said, Hey, dude, are you still a Missoula cop? And he said, yeah. And I said, Well, that's funny. I'm a cop down here. And I'm thinking about moving up there. And, lo and behold, Montana accepted my California qualifications as a police officer. So I didn't have to go through an academy up here. They, again, I went through another hiring process, and Missoula PD hired me.

 

Justin Nassiri  27:43

What was the what was the biggest differences in in those two roles?

 

27:50

I was driving a Ferrari in California, and I came up here and they gave me a Pinto. Missoula is a good town and they're good cops. It was just I struggled. I'll be very very blunt with with you guys in the listeners was I struggled with that transition. I think I I do. I've been diagnosed recently with PTSD, with major depression. I just started some some medication to kind of combat some of those feelings. I am in therapy. And I'll be a little sidebar is I'm a huge proponent of this. We as veterans, and cops and firemen and whoever, we need to talk about what's going on, man especially. And I can only speak because I am a man. But from my time in the Marine Corps, you know, we have a pack, right? We have a pack. And it's only so big, right? And you take some traumatic experiences, you throw it in the pack. Well, I kept taking all my traumatic experiences from my Marine Corps time to my police time to, to my family time, etc. Well, eventually, my pack started overflowing. And I became really, really depressed, made some terrible decisions as a husband and a father. And was on a path of self destruction. I contemplated suicide i'd contemplated divorcing my wife, I've contemplated on quitting my job in my career, something I really grew to love. I love being a police officer. And I started being like, I had this epiphany and I hit rock bottom kind of at the same time, and I said was the one thing that's really messing me up, and it was being a cop. It was time away from my wife and kids time away from family time I missed all of my kids soccer games. I've missed countless birthday parties, barbecues, holidays, you name it, to include my own birthday, because of work and that became a problem to me and again, hitting rock bottom at the same time having this epiphany of Have, you need to get your get your priorities straight. And, again, kind of starting to be real with myself and my family and expressing to my wife where I really was, and not just putting on that front of, everything's hunky dory, everything's good to go, No, I finally broke down and told her, I'm having some problems, I need to start seeing help. And we started going to marriage counseling. And then at the same time, I was I'm seeing a psychotherapist to work on some of my problems that I'm working through, you know, some PTSD, some major depression, I also suffer some from like, crazy anxiety. So I'm learning but ultimately, it caused me this cost me my career as a police officer, but one door closed, another graciously opened.

 

Justin Nassiri  30:56

Well, you know, a couple of things there. First of all,

 

30:58

I just dumped on,

 

Justin Nassiri  30:59

you know, I appreciate your your courage and vulnerability and honesty in that. And a couple things that stand out to me, first of all, for, you know, any listener that identifies with that I can just, I can only speak for myself, but I imagine it's very true of other listeners, when I hear your story, like my respect for you grows it, you know, I see the courage to face that I see the courage to be honest about that, and address that. And like my respect for you grows, leaps and bounds. And I feel like, when I've been on the other side of talking about similar things, my own life, there's always that hesitation to speak, because there's the fear that I will be rejected or looked down on or, or whatever the story is, which I've never found that to be true. Like, I feel like anytime someone has opened up and shown that sort of courageous vulnerability, it's always a sense of like, I trust this person more, I respect them more, I believe in them more so. And I want to highlight for listeners, you know, the courage that I believe it takes for you to share what you just did, as you did. And, you know, I'll say that for myself, you know, I was I was on submarines, I was not on combat tours, I was certainly I was in Silicon Valley, I was certainly not a police officer or in law enforcement for over a decade. And I've worked with a therapist for over five years. And it's been such an incredible help. And I see couples, counselors for my marriage and like, I view all of these things at at, at worst as preventative maintenance, and at best of like, really healing the scars and wounds that we all have. And so I you know, I just want to also stand behind what you're saying and say that, like, it's, I feel like the easy way out is the thing that we see glamorized in movies, which is the man who bottles it up and becomes an alcoholic or has violent outbursts. And while that makes for great cinema, it makes for a really shitty life. Instead, figuring out how to work through those things and find better tools and better skills and better things. It's not easy, my experience hasn't been easy, I can't imagine yours being easy. But that that's the hero that I want to see in the movie, the one who's willing to turn inward and work on this, rather than just continue to bury it. And I've you know, I've buried it with alcohol and with pot and with all sorts of things, it's very easy to do that. It's a lot harder to to be vulnerable and raw and honest. And so I just, I want to say that not just for you, but but even more. So for listeners who would identify with that, that and we'll put resources in the show notes. There's a lot of great resources out there. The last thing I'll say is that, you know, my story in the military. If you saw a psychologist, you know, on submarines, like you're very likely not going to be honest. Only boys. Yeah, like it's like, it's like it's it's a sign of being broken, that will literally, potentially injure your career. And I hope that for our listeners, that's not the case now, but certainly once you get out of the military realizing that it's like the opposite. It's it's actually it's like going to the gym. It's like exercising, it's like, no, you're not going to the gym because you're broke and you're going to the gym because you're becoming stronger. And how much more do you respect the guy or gal who's going to the gym every morning at 5am versus the person who's eating Cheetos and watching TV like I view therapy has that that gym experience?

 

34:32

Oh, 100% and it I mean, it's taken me a long time to if we would have had this opportunity to speak maybe a year or two ago. I would have just told you how bitch and I was as a cop. Yep. I would not have told you what's really going on behind the facade, right? Like, I call it like an Instagram life. everybody's life is perfect on Instagram. My kids are wonderful. My wife is amazing. Look at me on vacation is Instagram or Social media, whatever, Facebook or whatever you want to call, I don't have those things anymore because it's to me it's fake. It is not the real life. No one's gonna say, Man today just sucked. Yeah, I wanted to beat my kids to you know, whatever. My kids were just awful. No one says that on Instagram. They're like, Oh, look at how cute my kid is. That's not real. It might be real in that moment. But that's not real. And it's taken me a long time to take away my Instagram life and kind of be real. And that's where, you know, I try and be a voice because again, like you said, You are shunned, or is frowned upon to go see a psych. If you're having problems, you're not one of the boys anymore, because you can't be trusted. Because you're, you're you have problems. And that's, that's the wrong attitude to have. And that works in cop work, as well. Because when I got my shooting, we were mandated to see Sykes. Well, I'm not going to tell the site that I'm not okay. Because I want to go back to work with my friends. Yep. And I want my gun back and Yep. And it's, it's not the right thing to do it again, I'm still learning how to voice my, my problems and, and, you know, be a man about it, if you will. But, uh, yeah, you're it's frowned upon in in the in the line of work that I did as a police officer and as a marine. Yep. You don't you don't you're, you're not one of the boys. And I always wanted to be one of the boys.

 

Justin Nassiri  36:31

Yeah, it's, um, yeah, I mean, I think it's, I think that's, that's so true. And it's, there's a great I don't know if it's still on Netflix, but there's this documentary called the I think it's the mask you live in. And it's just kind of talks about, and, you know, I know our audiences is male and female, I think it's much more predominant. for males. This, this documentary does a great job of talking about how, just all the ways, even without the military, all the ways growing up in our society, that we as men are taught not to share and not to have emotion, we, of course, we have emotions, but not to show it or not to feel it. And so you know, you you stuff, a lot of this down, and you don't allow yourself to feel the grief, or the rage, or the anger or the loneliness, or all of these, this huge palette of emotions that we all have, we're kind of allowed to express anger, or stoicism, right? Like, I'm just gonna cut off my emotions. Those are kind of like the two things we're allowed to as men. And you know, in my own life, and I imagine for you it is it's like, learning to ride a bike like, Okay, this is what loneliness feels like. And this is what joy feels like, and let me

 

37:44

know what feelings feel like.

 

Justin Nassiri  37:46

And even the thought that we're, you know, and I've been out of the military for over 10 years as well. It's like, even, even as you and I talk about feelings, there is the part of me from the military, that's like, Are you really going to talk about feelings? Like there's like that judgment? 10 years? Very, it's very ingrained in us,

 

38:05

yo, yeah, absolutely. And for the listeners, I will tell you right now, it is okay to talk about your feelings. And I'm only speaking on behalf of males, because I'm a male. It's okay. It's okay. Go seek help. If you have a Ferrari or Lamborghini and your check engine light comes on, are you going to keep driving that car? Probably not, you're going to go take it to the mechanic because you want that car to run? Well, your body is like an engine and your brain is like an engine. And if you don't get it taken care of in service once in a while, it's going to explode. And it's going to be not good and not not in a violent way. But you're going to have a meltdown, or it's just take care of yourself. And that's again, what I'm learning, I'm still very much a novice in my therapy have only been going to therapy for about a year now. So it does work though, I'm able to talk about it, where last year this this conversation would have never happened.

 

Justin Nassiri  39:08

And and I love that analogy used earlier. If you're like the the pack and you just keep on cramming in from the Marine Corps, and from the time in law enforcement, you just keep on packing it in. And I think that's such a great visual because to envision myself with that pack of all that stuff, trying to be competitive in the workplace or trying to be a good father or a good husband. I can probably do it. But like why would I want to be weighed down with 150 pounds versus like, if I'm a smart human being? Why don't I start taking things out one by one and over the course of a year. Maybe I take five things out of authentic letter 1000 right. Like, why not just get rid of this, these pounds and I you know, I love what you said to about social media like literally last night my wife and I were in an argument and there was part of me that If that happens, yeah, it's like, but I there was part of me that wanted to say, like, it was something like, you know, we are the only people struggling or we are the only people having this problem. It's like I see the part still where I buy into this Instagram bs versus the quarantine is hard. Marriage is hard. Making a career is hard. Like, being a father is hard, right? Like God, it feels like no one talks about that. And yet, it's our universal experience. But I'm like you, it doesn't help me to see someone on social media, pretending that it's all great. Like we all struggle, we all have things that just suck.

 

40:42

Yeah, and I don't get me wrong, I loved I don't have Instagram anymore. I got rid of my Instagram got rid of my Facebook, Myspace back in the day. I got rid of all that. Because it was such a distraction for me. I can remember countless times me and my wife on our quality time sitting on the couch watching a movie together and me having to pause it. Did you see that? And she's on her face our phone scrolling through liking photos, commenting on photos? No, we have to rewind it and vice versa, me on the same thing. And missing that quality time with my wife or my kids. Because social media was kind of taken over. And I was trying to look at how good everybody else else life was and how can I can portray my life on how awesome it is. Yeah, and that's, that's why I got rid of it. Yeah, I just it's, it's a, I loved it. Because I was able to keep in connection with like my buddies that I served with, and, and, you know, it's a great way to communicate and catch up. But at the same time, it was destroying my family. internally. My wife has gotten rid of Facebook, she still has Instagram. And it's still one of our fights all the time, like a baby, I need your help. And she's not listening to me because she's focused on her phone. You know, and it's still one of our fights to this day is, please get off your phone and talk to me.

 

Justin Nassiri  41:58

Yeah, so I mean, that's one of I don't I don't really like resolutions. But one of my my intentions for this year is like I want to be more present and patient especially with my wife and what exactly what you're saying, for for your wife is what my wife would say of me. And it doesn't necessarily even need to be with me with my phone here. It's I could just be in front of her but my mind is on work or something else. And she has to repeat herself or sees even talked about with our we have a two year old son. She's like, hey, he will say things to you three times before you register. And it's like, I don't you know, I don't want that like I want to. It's It's It's funny from like a military perspective of like situational awareness. Like I'm literally in our kitchen and a bomb could go off and I wouldn't notice

 

42:44

it. Yeah, I agree. Yeah, you can walk right into my front door if I'm on my phone. Yep. So yep, I try and put the phone down when I come home. And I'm not great at it. I'm still learning, you know, but it's some of the tools that I've learned over the course of my, my therapy and just trying to be real with myself on what's going on. Yep. And what's more important at you in the moment. So

 

Justin Nassiri  43:09

I love that. One thing I want to ask about too, it's, it's, it's crazy, because almost everyone I've had in the 380 interviews I've done all of us kind of face a struggle to find a new purpose, when we leave the military to find a new community, when we leave the military. And there's a there is almost like a grieving process of leaving behind something that gives a lot of us fulfillment. And then, you know, for you, you had, it seems like you've had to do that twice. Now you've you I'm guessing you had a lot of purpose and mission and all and community and connection and so many things. You know, there was it sounds like some negative things as well, but a lot of positives. And you've had to do that twice now. And then just kind of curious how you were able to do that, like how you were able to kind of move on and say I'm going to find my third purpose, or my third big thing for myself.

 

44:04

So part of my rock bottom and epiphany that I had, like, I'm not kidding, it was literally like simultaneously as it appeared. And I'm not a super religious man, not by any stretch. But I do have some spiritual beliefs. And and this I'm not trying to go there at all by any means. But what I realized is how do I want to be remembered? What legacy do I want to leave behind? Do I want to be known as a kick ass cop? down for the cause down to kick in a door, get into a gunfight with etc? Or do I want to be remembered as a good dad, and I'm working on the good dad part. I'm not a great dad. I have many, many struggles, but I'm working on it. And at the end of the day, what's more important being a knuckle dragging cop that's down for the cause or being that Awesome dad that said all the soccer games, football games, baseball games, cheerleading, etc. That's what again, that epiphany was like, that's how I want to be remembered. My kids could care less on. My dad was a SWAT cop, he's badass. Versus My dad was at all my football games. My dad didn't miss anything because he didn't have to work. He was there. And I've seen this because I've been at three different agencies now. The bus is going to continue, that bus is going to continue with or without, with or without you. Yep. And it sucks. Because you're like, no, that they need me. I'm the best they need me know that buzz just kept on going. They didn't slow down. They didn't skip a beat. You're a cog in their will. But there's somebody else to fill that spot, you know. And you can't say that as a dad. You can't say that as a husband. There's no, there better not be no other, another man is willing to take my spot. Those are my kids. That's my wife. You know if that makes sense. So that's how I choose to be remembered. And that's why I've graciously stepped away from law enforcement. I still love cops, I still loved that I was that I wore that uniform that I was a police officer and a deputy sheriff and a SWAT cop. I love that part of me. But that is a that is a chapter in my life. Chapter of my story. But I want the whole story to be. Yeah, my dad was a cop. He was a marine. But he was also my dad, he was there for me. So

 

Justin Nassiri  46:30

I love the clarity that that provides, though, through that simple question of like how you want to be remembered. And I also applaud you on not just the level of self awareness to answer that question and be honest with yourself, but then the audacity to pursue it. I feel like there's many people I know, or times in my life when I would even know this isn't right. And then I continue doing it for years, you know, and so I love that you were willing to follow that which again, I don't think is the I don't think change is ever the easy thing.

 

47:05

This has been a struggle for me. I'm sitting behind a desk. Yeah. First time and since high school that I've actually sat behind a desk, you know, what I'm learning to embrace it? Yeah, I get off at the same time, and I get to see my kids play every day. I'm at dinner every night.

 

Justin Nassiri  47:20

Yeah, tell us about so you're safe school specialist, University of Montana tell us what sort of work that entails.

 

47:27

So based off my past career, in law enforcement and some of the qualifications that I have, the safe school center here works for the state of Montana, we're just housed at the University. I'm a letter of appointment employee. So I'm I buy I'm paid solely off of grants off of state and federal grants. But what my job entails is to work with K through 12 schools across the state in developing threat assessment teams. A threat assessment team is basically school officials, law enforcement officials, most likely sorrows, counselors, certain certain stakeholders within the city and or county. And what they do is they work to prevent active shooters, suicides, bullying, drug abuse, drug abuse, etc, within the schools. So I work with schools to help develop those teams for them with them, and teach them how how best to combat those types of actions. You know, that doesn't mean suspensions and expulsions and detentions it means working with kids and helping them find the resources that they need. And to prevent set actions, right, because the last thing we want is for another active shooter within a school by another student. The last thing we want is to have another student take their life because of bullying or cyberbullying or sexual assault, sexual abuse. So working within within the schools to help develop those teams may also do site analysis and site surveys. So helping the schools become more heart, like harden them as targets. So they're not so vulnerable, working on their vulnerabilities and teachings on how to make them safer. And then another key responsibility that I do is I'm an active shooter instructor. So I can work with law enforcement and the civilian population on how to respond during an active shooter event. So teaching teachers and students on how to run hide fight basically, and what when and or how to apply those those actions. So

 

Justin Nassiri  49:45

I love you know, I love the aspect of I think of preventative maintenance again, where the work that you're doing is is is having that community impact. I love the aspect of Yeah, I love that though. But I also I think there's a great example They're to where, you know, it does sound like there's a big transition, you spend over a decade doing anything and you make a switch, there's so much there. But I love this thought of you having more time with your family, more predictability all of these things. And I know that, you know, every single one of the people I've interviewed for the show, there's always these trade offs. You know, I don't know if anyone ever gets it hitting on everything. But it's like, yeah, this is something I like, I don't like this, but I get time with my family or whatever else. And it's, that's kind of the never ending juggling act, and it's a battle. And one thing I love, I remember what you said earlier, you, I think what you had said was something like, like, I want to be a good father. And I'm, I'm working to do that. And I feel like that's something I've learned over the last year is like, I have these visions of what a good father husband, whatever provider all of these things are. And I may never be that but it's like the struggle to get there is what matters. Like that's, that's where hero ism is. That's my view where the warrior comes in is like the pursuit of something that I may never attain. But it's like, I screw up all the time as a dad, but I want to be a good father, and I'm trying to be a better father. And I feel like that might be what I need to settle for is just the constant pursuit, rather than feeling like yeah, I nailed it as a dad today.

 

51:34

That was the that's what's great about it, though, is you can have those good days where like, dude, I was just awesome. Yeah. Like, my kids love me today. But the next day is going to be different. And it is that constant give and take that battle that struggle of, and again, that's what I'm learning right now is some days, I'm just suck. It just it is what it is. But I'm learning even more so to talk to my kids about it. Listen, babe, I'm sorry, talking to my daughter. Listen, baby. I'm sorry, Daddy yelled at you about that. That was not okay. Daddy had a temper. He sorry. I will do better next time. And letting my kids know when it's okay to say you're sorry. And to it's okay to have a bad day. Let's learn from it. And that's, again, what I'm learning. And this is coming from therapy. This is coming from, you know, me trying to work on myself. Because the old me would have been like was her fault. She pissed me off. Yeah, she's eight. It's not her fault. So, again, that's where I'm learning. And, you know, shout out to Andy stump because I've heard him say that he's had moments with his kids. And then he goes and apologizes to them. That's where I got it from. I didn't read I'm reading. I'm not reinventing the wheel here. I heard it from somebody. I'm trying to apply it.

 

Justin Nassiri  52:49

So that's literally how my day I have a two year old and it my day started. And I'm like daddy's really sorry, I got mad yesterday yelled at you. And it's like, there's a lot of shame. Like there's I have a lot of shame that I'm like, Oh, I'm yelling, I am a 40 year old man yelling at a two year old child like that, like this little tiny bean has gotten me to lose my shit. And it's like, you

 

53:12

know, all the buttons to push.

 

Justin Nassiri  53:15

But I love that thought, though of like, let me at least show him. Like you're saying let me at least show him that I can apologize. And I can recognize what I did wrong. Because I'm two years into parenting. And I realized me showing up as the perfect dad will occasionally happen, but for the most part not. So let me at least show him the example of a dad who's trying to be a better dad and taking ownership for all the times that I screw up. So he can see me working on this where it's like, yeah, I'm not proud of that and take ownership and we're gonna try to do better.

 

53:47

Yep. 100%. That's, that's what I'm trying to do. Because I want I don't want model citizens. For my kids. I just want them to be decent. I just want them to be decent, hard working kids. Yeah, you know that. And that's the example. I'm trying to show that it's okay to be vulnerable. It's okay to be apologetic. It's okay to make mistakes. Because I'm the last person that's close to perfect. I promise you that I'm nowhere near it. I feel the same way. I'm trying my best to at least be an example for my kids on an imperfect person trying to do the right thing.

 

Justin Nassiri  54:19

Yeah, I love that. Well, we're, we've got just a few minutes left. I always like to just kind of leave the last couple minutes open to you know, I just really again, appreciate your sharing your story, but also sharing your struggle and sharing. It's very clear the man that you want to be, and I respect and admire the man you want to be even more because you're you're going after that, you know, it's like, I can't articulate it well, but it's like I feel like we try to present on Instagram, or Facebook. The person we aspire to be right When at least for me, what I'm hungry for is knowing the man or woman who is going through the meat grinder to try to achieve that and screwing up and being knocked down and getting back up because that, that someone I can learn from like you're someone I can learn from and can apply to my own life and the image of perfection. I don't think it exists. And I got nothing to learn from that. There's nothing there. So I appreciate that vulnerability in that courage. But I just wanted to make space for anything else you want to share with listeners before we wrap up.

 

55:33

Honestly, I just, this is more for the veterans is don't become a statistic guys. Seek to help. We're all here. We all have our problems. And it's okay to have those problems. Just seek the help. And that goes for marriages. If you guys are having struggles in your marriage, get help. Don't quit. And yeah, I don't know. Honestly, this has been awesome. This is a true honor for me to be on this podcast. I'm very humbled by it. Thank you so much